Experts say diversity and inclusion are essential to leading or managing a successful team. On this edition of the Atlanta Small Business Show, we’re pleased to welcome back Laura Liswood, award-winning speaker, author, and the Secretary General of the Council of Women World Leaders. Today, Liswood discusses her latest book, The Elephant and the Mouse: Moving Beyond the Illusion of Inclusion to Create a Truly Diverse and Equitable Workplace.
Transcription:
Jim Fitzpatrick:
Thank you so much, Laura, for joining us once again on the show.
Laura Liswood:
Jim, it’s great to see you again.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
Sure.
Laura Liswood:
I’ve enjoyed having conversations with you, so thank you.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
Sure. We got so many positive responses to the last time that you were on our network and we appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to talk about where we stand on this topic right now in business. Business has been through so much with COVID and what have you and I think there’s a lot of business people out there scratching their head on so many different issues, but certainly diversity and inclusion has to be at the top of everybody’s list no matter what we go through in business. That’s just the environment that we’re in today.
Laura Liswood:
Well, sure. If you are an organization and you want to be creative, you want to be innovative, you want to have the best and the brightest people-.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
… you better have a pretty big pool of people. Yeah.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. No question about it. So talk to us about your latest book and talk to us about an imbalance that you mentioned between an elephant and a mouse. Talk to us about that and how that relates to organizations.
Laura Liswood:
Well, I think what I’m hoping to convey is that there’s this next generation of thinking around diversity efforts. As you and I talked before, we got to get past the Noah’s Ark phase, which is okay, let’s just get two of each in the ark.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
Yeah. We got to get past that. And a lot of organizations are past that. They really do embrace the recruiting of a diverse people. But now, okay, now you got them in the door, what are you going to do with them kind of thing, and how are you going to keep them, and how are you going to make sure that you’re getting the most out of your diversity, and how are you going to make sure that people feel included and respected and want to fully participate within your organization? To me, it’s like Diversity 2.0 at this point. We got to think further. And one of the things that I think is crucial for leadership in an organization is to get a much better fix on the lived experiences of everyone within the organization, particularly diverse people within an organization. That’s where the elephant and mouse comes in as the parable.
Laura Liswood:
Basically, the notion is if you are the elephant in the room, IE the dominant group, what do you really know about that nondominant group? What do you really know about the mouse? Not much, right? But if you’re the mouse in the room, what do you need to know about the elephant? You better know everything about it.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
Does that twitch of the tail mean it’s moving backwards? Does that twitch of the ear means moving sideways? The elephant is almost oblivious to you. My position now is that dominant groups need to have a much better understanding of the experiences within an organization that your non-dominant groups are having because a lot of people, particularly in senior leadership, often can get confused in a sense. They often think that, “Well, the way the world works for me is the way the world works for everyone else.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
Yep. That’s right. That’s right. Such a common feeling out there, isn’t it?
Laura Liswood:
Yep. Yep. And if you are going to have diversity, if you are going to get to your Noah’s Ark stage, then you have to go that next step, then you have to… In part of my book, I talk about the myth of meritocracy. I’m telling you, Jim, I have never, ever come across anyone at the top of an organization who says, “I got to the top of this organization because I was subtly advantaged.” Who says that, Jim?
Jim Fitzpatrick:
You’re not going to hear it.
Laura Liswood:
You’re not going to hear it.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
Nope. That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
“I got to the top because this was a meritocracy and only the best get to the top, and so I’m rightfully here.”
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right. That’s right. You’re never going to hear that. Never going to hear it.
Laura Liswood:
Never going to hear it.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
Nope. That’s right. That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
But the little understanding that the way the world worked for you as you rose up in the organization probably didn’t work that way for everybody.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
There were subtle gatekeepers. There were subtle assumptions about people there. Differential assignments that go on within the organization, all relatively unconsciously, but it has the effect of having some people’s careers go quite well and some people’s careers not go well or go pretty slow.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right. That’s right. But Laura, aren’t I responsible for getting the best person for the job, regardless of how diverse their background might be, or the color of their skin, or their gender? Don’t I really want the best person out there and aren’t I entitled to find that person? Don’t I have an obligation to the board of directors to hire that person and put them in that seat? And if it happens to look just like me, well so be it.
Laura Liswood:
So be it. Yeah, just so be it. Well, it just turns out… and I know you’ve got a little sarcasm in your voice there.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right. I do.
Laura Liswood:
It just turns out that we override sometime in our own little circuits, when someone looks like us we go, “Oh yeah, they make mistakes, but they remind me of me when I was young.”
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
Okay, fine. Someone who doesn’t look like me, “They made a mistake. We tried. Clearly, they’re out.”
Jim Fitzpatrick:
They’re out. They’re out.
Laura Liswood:
They didn’t meet the standard. Whereas the other person, “Yeah, let them make a couple of mistakes. Let them learn.”
Jim Fitzpatrick:
Isn’t that amazing?
Laura Liswood:
Yeah. Or, “Jim, you’ve worked with me on a deal before and so I’m going to keep going back to you because I know how… I’m comfortable with you. I know how you’re going to deal with me.” I’m ignoring all these other people who don’t get the opportunity-
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
… to do those deals, to learn, to enhance their experiences, develop themselves, so all this kind of stuff starts to happen.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
You may start, and often organizations start with a good diversity of people coming in the door, and so the intake isn’t so bad, it’s the upgrade. It’s when people start moving up in the organization that you begin to see the gatekeepers that go on.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
Sure, sure. And you know, these managers that are different than the typical white male, like me out there, so I can say this because I am one, but you might have an African American that rises to a C-suite or even a mid-level manager or what have you, and then when they bring up other African Americans, they’re looked at now through a different set of goggles. So, “Oh, did they hire that person simply because they’re African American?” or, “Did she hire that person simply because it’s another female,” or Asian or whatever the case might be. But yet we don’t do that if we’re the that typical white male executive. Nobody says that, to say, “Well, why did you bring Bob up? He’s a white guy.”
Laura Liswood:
Yeah. Right. Right. Now, it just so happens, Jim, that you’re one of the good guys on this thing.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
Well, I don’t think there’s a lot of us out there, but if we don’t change, this will never change.
Laura Liswood:
And that’s exactly right. If the dominant group doesn’t understand these dynamics… and what you just said is precisely right. And in fact, ironically, if you, dominant group member, hire someone or sponsors someone, not mentors, but sponsor someone who’s different than you, people are asking you, “Jim, why did you take that risk? Why didn’t you just deal with so and so because we know how he’s going to handle it.” It’s the irony of that is that it looks more risky if you do that kind of thing.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right. That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
So you’re right, we don’t often ask that same question. We just kind of assume, well… and that happens like on boards of directors. “I’m going to hire my buddy who I know from the golf course or whatever. And I trust him and I know how he thinks and he knows how I think,” and all of that, not understanding that they’re missing out.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
Yeah. Or sometimes you’ll see executives that only go to lunch or dinner with other executives, like-minded, or I should say more than like-minded, that look just like them and they’ve become buddies or what have you. You know that there’s discussions and there’s business being discussed at those luncheons and those dinners and those Starbucks half hour coffee meetings or what have you, in all of those discussions. And yet, the others in the group that don’t look like that manager are left out of that and many times are not given those opportunities.
Laura Liswood:
Well, and that’s what I’m saying in terms of the best elephant and mouse leaders. Okay. The best elephant and mouse leaders do what you just said, which is that they reach out to people who are different than them. They get to know people who are different than them. Does it take more effort? Yes, it does. But look, if you’re going to say you want diversity and you’re not going to do this, then I say stick with homogeneity.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. It’s interesting too, that when people do go outside their comfort zone in this area, they’re pleasantly surprised to say, “oh my gosh, why have I not been doing this my entire career where I’ve brought others into the circle and kept them out,” because the talent is just incredible. The idea is the talent, the vision that everybody has is just incredible and can move the football down the field maybe quicker, faster, higher, cheaper, whatever the case might be. I say, cheaper for the company, not for salaries.
Laura Liswood:
Let me also add to that because you’re absolutely right. We can drive that ball further down, but let’s think about the risk if you don’t have heterogeneity.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right. That’s true.
Laura Liswood:
Think about that risk, the risk of homogeneous thinking, group think, the risk of reputational management. I mean, you’ve got companies, you’ve got automobile companies, they have spent their lifetime creating a reputation.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
You A good, strong, solid reputation. Quality, et cetera. How quickly can they lose that reputation?
Jim Fitzpatrick:
In a minute.
Laura Liswood:
In a minute.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right. One strong social media post and it could be either all over or dented in a very big way. And now, you’re starting all over and you’re starting in a defensive mode, and that’s very unfortunate. Plus, you lose out on so much great talent, and so many thought leaders out there and there’s so many great people out there that an organization has access to if they just open up their mind. By the way, we should also say the footnote here is that for companies that are listening, managers that are listening, this is in no way a sermon to you if you’re already doing this. This does not apply. Congratulations. You’ve already made the leap. But to the thousands out there that are listening that go, “Hmm. Maybe Jim and Laura are onto something here and maybe I do need to take a look at this and really focus on it,” what, Laura, do you want the biggest takeaways to be from the new book? We talked about a few of them today, but what do you want them to be?
Laura Liswood:
I think a couple of things. One, you notice the subtitle of the book is Getting Away from the Illusion of Inclusion. Now, that comes from a research work from Cheryl Kaiser at the University of Washington where she penned that phrase originally. What it means is, is that a lot of organizations, Jim, they do all sorts of programs. They got mentoring programs. They’ve got employee resource groups. They contribute to the ballet. They got all these programs that they do, but what happens is they mistakenly think, “Well, I must be an inclusive organization, I must be a fair organization because I’m doing all these programs.”
Jim Fitzpatrick:
“I’m checking all the boxes. Why are you coming after me?”
Laura Liswood:
“I’m checking all the boxes.”
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
Yeah. “I’m checking all the boxes,” but it’s an illusion unless you truly know. For example, we talk to meritocracy. Are you actually surveying all of your employees, both in dominant, non-dominant groups, about how they perceive the organization as a meritocracy? I’ll warrant that some of the groups do not proceed the order. Okay, you need to know that.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right. That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
That’s the kind of thing, that’s a message that I want to get across that you need to understand the lived experiences of people within your organization.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right. No question about it. So moving forward, what are some best practices in this area for companies that are listening today? What would you like them to go out and do tomorrow or check on or run a survey to see what’s going on in their own organizations in an effort to begin to change this?
Laura Liswood:
Well, first and foremost, what I said before, check to see if you truly are a meritocracy, like checking with your employees. Make sure that your processes are fair. Is everyone getting the feedback they should be getting? Make sure that the assignments, what they call the high value assignments, are being distributed equally so that some of the men, let’s say, they’re getting all the really top clients and the women are getting maybe not so much—. Let’s make sure that there’s equality with that, there’s a fairness of opportunity with that. Make sure that you as a manager are doing what I call active intervention when you see things going on, when you see someone getting interrupted because they’re a nondominant group member. Stop it.
Laura Liswood:
God bless men, but sometimes women experience this all the time, they say something, none of the men say anything, the man says it and then all the men go, “Oh my God, that a good idea. Great idea.”
Jim Fitzpatrick:
What a great idea. What a great idea. That’s right. That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
I want the manager to observe that dynamic and say, “Hold on. John, it sounds like you’re agreeing with Mary.”
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right. Or, “Mary, that was a great idea. Do you have more of those?”
Laura Liswood:
“Mary, that was a great idea.” Exactly.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
They sound micro is a way, but they’re not. They really add up to that.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
Unless when John’s idea, which was Mary’s, doesn’t work out, he’s going to be the first to blame Mary for coming up with it.
Laura Liswood:
There’s that part too. Of course. Of course.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s a whole nother book, right?
Laura Liswood:
Yeah, that’s another book.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s incredible. It’s funny. You’ll talk to managers and they’ll, and I’ve got some friends of mine that were… they’re baby boomers and they were brought up in during the ’60s and ’70s and ’80s and what have you. They’re in business and they’ll say, “Jim, I don’t have a diversity problem. I’ve called all my employees in that are diverse and that are in certain categories and I asked them, ‘Do I have a problem in this area?’, and they’ve assured that I don’t.”
Laura Liswood:
No.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
And I’m thinking to myself, “You have completely lost this whole deal.” I think of, I think his name’s Michael Scott on the show The Office, where he comes out and it’s kind of like that mentality where everybody goes, “No boss, you’re doing just fine. I want to get fired. I don’t want to get fired.”
Laura Liswood:
“You’re doing great.” Which is why you got to do other things. You got to do focus groups. You got to do surveying. You got to do data analytics, all of that kind of stuff, which will give… a manager would never think to just on trust believe the sales numbers or something, they would want to see the data. Sometimes Jim, I like to look at it and I know in the automobile industry, this is crucial, which is safety initiatives.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
Of course.
Laura Liswood:
You Have to have a safe workplace.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
I’m not talking psychological safety. I’m literally talking injury safety.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
Sure.
Laura Liswood:
Okay. Think about that as if you are a CEO, you’re completely committed to it. You train people constantly.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
You monitor it. You hold people accountable. You may even compensate for it. Everyone, everyone has the ability to shut off the line if they know that there’s not something unsafe going on.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right.
Laura Liswood:
Everybody has that, both authority and responsibility. So if you think about those safety initiatives and what’s in those and parallel those to the diversity initiatives, you’ll begin to understand a little bit more about what a true diversity effort looks like.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
That’s right. That’s right. That’s a great example because I think companies and leaders do have to look at it like that in order to make an impact and to change the environment and it’s needed that kind of vision. So Laura Liswood, who’s an award winning speaker, author, leadership and diversity expert, and Secretary General of the Council of Women World Leaders. Wow. That is a mouthful. That is very distinguished there. I want to thank you so much for joining us on the show. I know that our viewers and subscriber got a lot out of your visits with us here today. For leaders and managers of companies that are listening to Laura here today, take inventory of where you currently are and look around you and do those surveys, even if it’s with yourself to say, “Who do I have? And do I listen? And do I allow? And am I bringing up people? And what does my top management group look like? And what does my middle management group look like?” it
Jim Fitzpatrick:
If you look around and say, “Hmm, I really don’t have any diversity in the top five leaders in my company. That’s only because the talent must not be there,” no, no, no, no, no, take another look. You’ve completely missed everything we were talking about. But take that inventory. I think you’re going to be served well to do that. In addition, get the book because it’s a phenomenal book and we’re going to make it available right here underneath this discussion. And do yourself a favor, even if you have to hide in the closet and read it so it’s not out on your desk, so that… you don’t want to show any weakness there, right? But Laura, thank you so much for joining us on the show. As I said, it’s always a pleasure and our viewers get so much out of your visit. So thank you so much.
Laura Liswood:
Thank you, Jim. It’s always a pleasure to have a conversation with you. I really appreciate it.
Jim Fitzpatrick:
Good. And congrats on the book. Good luck with it.
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